In Part One of a very special three-part series, Dr. James Flowers welcomes to the show Tonda Chapman, Candy Finnigan, & Jeanie Griffin.
Today, Tonda, Candy, and Jeanie Griffin get personal and share their own experiences with addiction, recovery, spirituality, and The Twelve Step Program. They talk about family, and the people in our lives who become our family. Finally, they discuss the differences between belief and faith and turning to a higher power or being.
Key Takeaways
04:21 – Tonda Chapman, Candy Finnigan, & Jeanie Griffin all join the show today to talk about spirituality, addiction, recovery and family
10:04 – Turning to God or a higher power
15:23 – Family and the spiritual world
22:39 – Jeanie’s approach to family programs
32:41 – Belief and faith
35:07 – Dr. Flowers thanks listeners for tuning in to Part One of this episode and encourages them to return for Parts Two and Three with Tonda, Candy & Jeanie
Resources Mentioned
JFlowers Health Institute – https://jflowershealth.com/
JFlowers Health Institute Contact – (713) 783-6655
Subscribe on your favorite player: https://understanding-the-human-condition.captivate.fm/listen
Tonda’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonda-chapman-3018b2154/
Candy’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/candy-finnigan-8194068/
Jeanie’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeanie-griffin-d-d-lmft-lpc-lcdc-25a3939/
Books Mentioned
Another Chance: Hope and Health for the Alcoholic Family – https://www.amazon.com/Another-Chance-Health-Alcoholic-Family/dp/0831400722
**The views and opinions expressed by our guests are those of the individual and do not necessarily reflect those of J. Flowers Health Institute. Any content provided by our co-host(s) or guests are of their opinion and are not intended to reflect the philosophy and policies of J. Flowers Health Institute itself. Nor is it intended to malign any recovery method, religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company, individual, or anyone or anything.
🎙️🎙️🎙️
Podcast Production & Marketing by FullCast
—
Listen to the podcast here
Tonda Chapman, Candy Finnigan, & Jeanie Griffin – Part One – Spirituality & Family: From The Bridge Of Reason To The Shore Of Faith [Episode 84]
Two of our visitors, Candy Finnigan and Jeanie Griffin came over to my home. They checked out of the hotel and they were like, “We want to come see the house and visit with you.” They came over and they were there for a few hours and I fell asleep on the sofa talking to them. Candy said, “Aren’t we keeping you up?”
She’s not going to let you get away with anything.
I was like, “Candy, I’m so sorry I’m exhausted. This has been a crazy week.”
How about welcome to the show?
That is why. My human condition was exhausted. We had a lot of visitors. Several people were here and we had such a good time.
It was a good, busy, productive week in a number of ways, but it was never a dull moment with those two ladies for sure.
Tonda Chapman came over, and she visited with us, so we did a show with Candy Finnigan, Jeanie Griffin, and Tonda Chapman. It was amazing. It was so good. You had the brilliant idea to say, “Let’s not make this one episode,” because we cut it up into three different episodes. We may even chop it up even more.
It was great. It was nice because you guys were able to talk about so many things in a very real way, and there was such commonality in different sections. It made sense. It was easier. We share with our guests.
It was easy to cut it up. What are we going to do with section one?
Part one is a spirituality and family of choice. I took the title from something that Jeanie said during the show that resonated with me, and said, “From the bridge of Reason to the shore of Faith.” I thought, “Regardless of what your thoughts on spirituality are, we all fit somewhere in the universe and we all have something we call family.” In this episode, we are going to focus on what that definition of family is for each of you who were on the show.
Welcoming Our Guests
My definition of the family obviously is my chosen family which is Candy, Jeanie, and Tonda Chapman who were here and everybody has their own definition of family. It’s a great piece of the episode. You guys enjoy this episode.
–
I’m so excited to have Tonda Chapman, Candy Finnigan, and Jeanie Griffin with me. Candy and Jeanie are both from Los Angeles and are visiting now.
Visiting you.
Welcome. Tonda is visiting J Flowers Health Institute and Tonda, it’s good to have you. This is our first show together.
It is. Thank you for having me.
I’m so excited. How was your all’s flight?
Very good. Very nice. Thank you.
Do you want to know?
You sat next to an interesting character.
A 93-year-old man who I couldn’t keep up with but his family thanked me for sitting with him.
You babysat all the way to Houston from Los Angeles.
He was very cute.
Candy is one of my dearest friends and colleagues. We have known each other for many years. Candy has been all kinds of things in her life. She’s been an amazing wife, mother, human being, interventionist, and alcoholic.
We didn’t even get to see that.
I didn’t even get to see that. I have only known you in your recovery years. Obviously in long-term recovery. An amazing all-around human being and someone that I look up to and I’m so glad that you are here.
I am thrilled. I was in the beginning of the J Flowers Health Institute and it was a teeny little apartment and I thought, “I know this is going to work, but look at us now.” This is magnificent. I’m so proud of you. I know how hard you work and I know your ethics. That’s why we remained good friends. The old joke is we hate the same people.
I know. Jeanie has been a long-time dear friend of mine as well. Jeanie, you are an author, a mother, a mental health therapist, and a marriage and family therapist. It’d be amazing for the audience to know that you are also a shaman.
I don’t call myself that. I call myself a shamanic practitioner because it was so odd how I came to that. I have been on a spiritual journey my entire life. I kept going to the wrong address. I had to do that for a while. Then I came out of an experience. I lost my father when I was fifteen to alcoholism, and my mother died of cancer, which I say is a codependent disease. I lost her when I was 21. As a result, I was very angry with God. For about ten years I was not speaking to whatever this thing God was. After I had my daughter, I thought, I needed to allow her to at least know and choose for herself. I was finding probably the most solace in nature, and then I moved to Los Angeles. I ran away from home when I was 50.
“I guess I’ve been on a spiritual journey my whole life. I just keep going to the wrong address.”
I lived in Texas most of my life. I was born in Chicago and then moved to South Texas when I was eleven months old, Texans never accepted me because I was an outsider. As a result, I ran away from home and went to law school. I had been in the addiction world and mental health world for years. I thought, “I’m tired of being poor,” and so I’m going to go to law school and have somebody mean in front of me to say, “Do you want to talk to her? Put down $5,000.” I did that for a while and I thought, “I don’t want to do this.”
I’m driving down Venice Boulevard in Los Angeles, and I hear on the radio back in those days, there’s a gathering of the shaman and the healers at Big Bear. I thought, “I have to go.” I thought, “Why do I have to go?” Where did that come from? I have a fourteen-year-old Honda. I don’t think it’ll get up the hill. I thought I didn’t even know where it was. In South Texas, everything was flat. The highest thing was grain. It’s like mountains. I don’t know what to do with mountains.
That started that journey, and I went to see them and visit them and there was a woman that was there, and I went and talked to her like a session, and I showed up at her place. I said, “We have work to do together, but I don’t know quite what.” I’d give myself permission to run if she made me eat raw chicken or something.
She said, “You’ve come to us to learn how to be an elder,” and I burst into tears. I knew she was right but I had no idea what that meant. I started working with her and was in a three-year school and began learning how to listen to my intuition and do some shamanic work and do stuff that’s called soul retrievals. It dovetailed well with my work with individuals and families in dealing with trauma and a spiritual way of journeying and asking spirit helpers and ancestors to work with you. It began a different spiritual work and combined it with my twelve-step work in recovery. I use it with clients and I also teach other people how to go on their journeys and listen to working with the other beings in nature.
A Higher Power
Something that I was thinking of when you were telling me that, and maybe I’d love to hear from both of you on this because you have so much experience in this realm of addiction. Between the two of you have more than 70 years of recovery.
She’s an old broad.
A little more than 70 years between these 2 women. That’s amazing in itself. Congratulations. Something that we see all the time in addiction recovery is people will come into treatment and say, “I don’t want to do the twelve steps. I don’t want to talk about God. I don’t want God in my life. I have had a horrible life. Whether it’s addiction, mental health, failure launch, or anything else, when you start bringing God or spirituality into it, people tense their bodies Why don’t you talk to the audience a little bit about your approach to introducing God or having a higher power and that not everybody doesn’t have the same God?
I’m a retired Irish Catholic and I hadn’t done Catholicism. You have to count how many times you lie in a week. I had ten minutes on Saturday night when I wasn’t going to hell and the rest of the time I couldn’t keep track. I have a little book, I go, “I lie.” It’s like I gave up. When I got sober, I didn’t think it had anything to do with spirituality. Reading The Big Book, scared me.
I remember the first meeting I went to. At the end of the meeting, they said, “The Lord’s Prayer and this woman next to me didn’t know it.” I thought, “Have you missed some fun?” I thought, “How is all of this incorporated?” The second step of the twelve-step program is, came to believe. It doesn’t say you got it. You must, and if you don’t. I can in my way come to believe something, but you got to prove it.
One of the reasons I got into intervention, oddly enough, was when I met Dr. Vern Johnson, who was the beginning of this process of intervention. He was an Episcopal minister and he was teaching that you can’t do this work unless you believe in this spiritual. You don’t walk into a family that you don’t know and ask them to tell their deepest and darkest secrets unless you take somebody in there with you that will comfort you as you are comforting them.
That isn’t what it looked like on the outside to me and so I thought, “That’s my job.” When somebody gets down and goes, “I have been praying for this and it didn’t work,” and I go, “He sent me.” I do feel that way. I feel like I do spiritual work, and for many years I didn’t talk about it because it wasn’t an accepted situation in that process. I thought, “You people are crazy.” A minister started this, so how could it not be?
Along the way, I have been introduced to different levels of spirituality. It’s pretty crazy but we don’t get to tell you how you feel in twelve-step, and that’s the magic of it. I don’t think you are going to stay unless you have some spiritual awakening, because here’s a whole bunch of liar thieves sitting in a room, and you can’t lie. You have to tell the truth. If that is a spiritual manifestation, I don’t know what is. Every person and we are non-judgmental, and so that’s a spirit to me within itself.
“In Twelve Step, we don’t get to tell you how to feel and that’s the magic of it. You are not going to stay unless you have some sort of spiritual awakening.”
I met Jeanie years ago and I had always been fascinated by and loved American Indian tradition, and I’m from Kansas in the Plains Indian, which is a very different Indian. She started talking to me and said, “I’m going to do a workshop and you have to do it,” and I went, “I don’t know. We are going to find your spirit animal.” I’d always had a spirit animal, but I didn’t tell anybody. I thought and oddly enough, it’s a black horse.
Vern’s is a polar bear and I can’t find enough of them. One of them. We are fortunate enough and James and I gravitate towards each other and trust and in love because it’s getting hard to find. Our business is dealing with terminally ill people, and we have to always believe they can get better. I don’t know any other business that does this. When I got into the business, Jeanie and I talked about it so much. It wasn’t a competition. Everybody was fighting for the person who was sick, and we have gone by the wayside. Money does not bring sobriety.
Family And The Spiritual World
The more money we see the more difficult it is to maintain your sobriety in my experience. In speaking of money, the patient, and families, let’s talk a little bit about family. My family is sitting right here. My family is sitting in this room right now. You are all my family, but my sister is sitting right here next to me. Tando is my sister and was my sister-in-law. It is so important to have family in your life in some capacity. As we all know, I come from a dysfunctional family, and Candy, you were saying, “Everything you’ve ever built, you’ve always included family. You’ve always had family in it.”
It’s always been so primary with you.
It’s primary with me in my heart because I don’t have a lot of it. I come from that dysfunctional South Texas Family system. My mother and father passed away, and everybody in my family practically has passed away, I’m closest to my two nieces. Courtney Marie and I have other families that unfortunately we see each other every once in a while, but my closest right here is Tonda Chapman.
Talk about family and believing in family and believing in God and being part of the spiritual world in recovery. Tonda, talk a little bit about yourself. I have worked with you for many years. I remember talking to you about moving to Houston from Dothan, Alabama. I want to tell a quick story real quick about your father, because I love her father, like my own father.
Jeanie, her dad lives in the Piney Woods of Alabama. Rural Alabama and we were going down to McAllen because Tonda Michael and I had an office in McAllen. Her mom and dad had flown over to Houston, or maybe they drove over to Houston and we said, “Let’s all get in the car and drive down to McAllen together.
Her father had never been to South Texas. I’m driving and her father’s in the right seat. He’s sitting there and he is wringing his hands, and we are past Robstown, Texas. He’s doing this and he’s looking out the windows and he’s dead silent. I was like, Mr. Beard, are you okay? He looked at me and he said, “There is no tree in sight.” I was like, “Get ready for the next three hours to drive to McAllen, Texas because there’s not going to be a tree in sight.” We drove through the King Ranch, and he was like, “I have never seen land that is this stripped with no trees.” It was hysterical because he was in such deep thought about the lack of trees in South Texas and where he came from.
I was so claustrophobic in North Carolina the first time I went with that mountain right there because the highest thing I ever knew was grain. It’s like, “Nothing can be over my waist or chest.”
Even when I go home, I call it home to Alabama to talk to their family’s home. I get claustrophobic in the woods sometimes going, “You can’t see the sunrise. You can’t see the sunset. You see the color in the sky.” Talk about family and the role that family plays in your life because you order it in your life in a particular way. Talk about that.
Let me talk about the trees, to begin with. When we moved to Texas several years ago, I never realized how much I missed green. Even though we have some green in Houston, we don’t have forests like we have in Alabama and it was hard for me to get used to that. It’s a different change in scenery than there are your trees. They comfort me. They make you claustrophobic.
That’s the way we have to approach people that are looking for recovery. Everyone comes from a different place. What I have found is that one commonality is the people who bring family in and the family takes part in their recovery. They are so much more successful. I was looking at The Big Book, reading The Big Book versus my big book. I’m like, “My big book, the Bible that I have read all my life looks so much like this big book.”
“Everyone comes from a different place. The people who bring family in and the family takes a part in their recovery, are so much more successful.”
I was fascinated that my life had been like this. Do the next right thing. That pushes us all. The steps are simple, but they are a must in my life for it to be functional and to have the family that we have, a solid family taking care of each other, and doing the next right thing. Getting out of our heads, doing things for others the way I’d lived my life. It was fascinating when we came here. We were working with chronic pain clients and we started losing those because they would go home at night, it was all outpatient work. They’d go home at night, they’d go see their doctor, get more pills, drink a little on the side. Their heads weren’t clear enough for us to help.
Dr. Flowers told me one day, “We are going to have to get these guys out of their environment. We are going to have to put them in a place where their head can be clean and they can begin to heal.” They can think clearly, and so we brought them in and that worked great. Started working great until the day the lady came in and we had a family weekend and saw a lady. She was rocking in that rocket chair so hard, and I could tell she was agitated.
“Ma’am, are you okay?” “I’m okay. My husband came home from here and he’s so happy he’s starting to run marathons and he hadn’t been able to walk in years. He’s so darn happy, and he thinks I should be.” That was when the bell went off of family programming. We need to educate the family. What can they do to participate when their loved one comes home because their loved one’s been in treatment for 30, 60, or 90 days? They have been at home still simmering over what their loved one did before they came for treatment.
The beauty of bringing our family program, having people like you guys come in and educate families, work with them, it’s huge. It’s as big as your spiritual component. I agree with Candy. If there’s not a spiritual awakening, something bigger than ourselves that we could work with or that will work alongside us because there are times we are alone and we have to have something bigger with us in that room.
I’m so blessed that I have had that all my life, but to see people find that and to see families join in that and understand the whole capacity, it’s amazing. I couldn’t overemphasize how important family is to me. I have 3 daughters and 9 grandchildren and don’t get me started on the grandchildren.
We are not going to badmouth them.
They call me Nani, and that is my favorite name I have ever had in my life. Family is extremely important, and for family systems to work together. You’ve got to be on the same page. You’ve got to have an education, and the normal family has pushed addiction under the rug. They haven’t searched and educated themselves. Bringing that to the forefront that yes, your loved one’s in treatment, “Come on. Let’s educate you and bring this together so we can move forward in a positive manner. That works well.
Family Programs
Jeanie, both of you do so many family programs and work in family systems and both interventions. Candy, family programs that you both do out in California. Talk a little bit about your approach to the family program.
I lived in Texas for a long time and I didn’t realize that I was getting on the ground floor of the addiction movement. I don’t know what I thought I was doing, but pioneers were teaching workshops at that time, and conventions and conferences were not about marketers having dinners for other marketers. They were about clinicians getting to go somewhere to learn new things and new techniques.
I was going to workshops and learning from Sharon Wegscheider Cruse, Claudia Black, and John Bradshaw. All these people are writing books that the field of psychology ignored because it was “pop psychology.” I went on to teach a course at UCLA for training counselors and I taught psychologists, the individual psychologist, Freud, and all those family therapists. In the middle was a whole group of people that was bringing a new science to the world and that was many of the ACOA movement, Adult Children Of Alcoholics.
All those people were writing and working. A quick story. There was a woman by the name of Janet Geringer Woititz, who wrote a book called Adult Children of Alcoholics with thirteen characteristics. It was her thesis for a doctorate program. She went to a conference in Washington and met a guy, her luggage was lost so she met a guy at the lost luggage, Gary Seidler, whose luggage was lost, and he said, “You are here. What are you presenting about?’ They got to talking. She said, “I have to tell him about this project,” and he said, “That describes my family. Who’s publishing your book or are you going to publish this?” She said, “I don’t know.”
I happen to have a little publishing company in Florida and I thought, “luck” would have it or God would have it, or Spirit hooked them up together. That book went up to the New York Times Bestseller List. Agents at that time were the only way you could get a book published, and they were looking at each other saying, “Who’s her agent? Who is this woman? Who is this publishing company?” It was Health Communications that was the only rival to Hazelden back in those days, and now people may know Health Communications because they published all the chicken soup books after Jack Canfield had been rejected 144 times. Health Communications took a chance on him.
I tell you all that background, not only to prove that I’m old, been here a long time, but it resonated with a population that hadn’t been sanctioned by the field of psychology and the publishing industry. People would say, “Who are these people?” It still resonates, but all the books are old. Several years old. I give them to my clients and they say, “This is an old book.” I said, “You need to read it or I’m not working with you.” Then I chastised myself and said, “Why haven’t you rewritten some of this stuff?”
It spoke to me. I grew up in an alcoholic home. It was a loving alcoholic home, and there was such an animal. I knew I was loved. I knew we were loved. I also knew there was something that crept in under the door that nobody could do anything about, and it fractured our family. When working with Sharon, she had been working with Virginia Satir, who was the leading family therapist out in Palo Alto, California.
“I grew up in an alcoholic home. It was a loving alcoholic home, and there is such an animal. I knew I was loved. I knew we were loved. I also knew that there was something that crept in under the door that nobody could do anything about. And it fractured our family.”
Virginia would say, “Alcohol is a separate illness. Give me an alcoholic family. I will take them to the woods for a week and they will come back and the alcoholic can be cured.” Sharon says, “No, it’s a separate illness.” In a way, she broke away from the traditional family therapist. She was working for the Johnson Institute at the time and published her first book called Another Chance: Hope and Health for the Alcoholic Family, and it was out of that book that we coined the words, the roles of the family, the hero scapegoat, lost child and mascot. As a result, people would say, “That’s me that describes it.”
I was doing a family workshop that I had written years ago, and this leading expert of the day was chasing all the new money in the field and said, “You shouldn’t be teaching those roles, it doesn’t resonate. It’s old.” I said to the owner, “Either I teach it or I leave. Simple as that.” It speaks to me. It speaks to a lot of my clients.
I did end up leaving because they were bought by a corporation and I’m not a corporate person. About a year later he called and said, “Would you come back and do the family program?” I said, “I’d be happy to.” He said, “You don’t have to do anything that man says to do.” I said, “I will be back.” I have tweaked that program and it’s gotten better and better.
Sharon was fired for publishing that book. She said, “I will never be under somebody’s thumb again.” To this day, she and I are still friends and I’m very indebted to her because, between her and Claudia Black, it became okay for me to talk about my family and to talk about the ghosts that were in the living room. I have talked to a lot of my high school friends on Facebook, and so many of us were living in an alcoholic home and we never talked about it.
We now talk about it, we are able to say, “The three rules. Don’t talk, don’t feel, and don’t trust.” We are operating, and they still do. It’s amazing. Talking about spirituality or the family, The Big Book says, and when I say big book, it’s the Alcoholics Anonymous book. It’s not called a textbook, but it is one that the spiritual life is not a theory. You have to live it, and we have to live it because we are spiritual beings. Some of that all has been, if I can use the word bastardized by, “I’m going to manifest something.” The whole idea is if I sit in a room and do enough meditation, I will get a portion in my driveway by 10:00. That is not what we are talking about.
“The spiritual life is not a theory; you have to live it. And we have to live it because we are spiritual beings.”
I did a workshop that came to me one time. I’m a teacher in my DNA. I thought of tracing your spiritual roots, and it’s one of the ones I love to do. I thought, “What was the spiritual gift that my father and mother gave me?” My family, growing up, my dad refinished furniture when he could keep a job. We had a church pew in our backyard. I don’t know how that happened. I don’t know whether the church said, “Refinish 50 of these, we’ll give you 1 for payment.” I don’t know. Other people had a picnic table. We didn’t. We had a church pew.
My dad would be drunk and he’d be sitting on the church pew view outside looking at South Texas storms. He’d say, “Let’s look for tornadoes.” My sister and I would be on either side of this drunk, and he was so loving and caring, even if he was drunk, and we’d look for little tornado tails and clouds, and I was scared to death hanging onto this drunk. Now it forecasts my relationships later on in my life, hanging on a drunk for excitement.
We’d look and I had, my sister would be out there and then the thunder would happen. He’d say, “God’s bowling. Let’s count how far away.” My poor mother was in the house trying to figure out, how do you feed 6 people on 1 can of tuna. Wishing lightning would strike us out there, probably. I thought, “What did she give us?” She was always taking us to church. All of us. My brother and three little girls. She’d yank our hair back and get it all right. Go to church.
I loved the community. I loved singing in the choir. I loved being at church suppers. I loved all that. My dad was a good old alcoholic. “I’m not going to church and sitting there with those hypocrites.” The time of year,r I missed them was Easter time, not Christmas, and I thought, “What is this about?” I began doing my work and investigating like I asked my clients to be detectives. We are not here for judgment. Let’s look at the facts.
I realized that what my dad gave me was the gift of mystery. That this higher power was something I couldn’t always explain. It was the mystery that was in nature. My mom gave us gifts for the community. That to me is how it started my shaman work to put it all together. When I ended up hating God and hating the whole notion that this doesn’t work, it finally dawned on me that in church, I never got the feeling of mystery, the spiritual connection. In nature, I didn’t have a community. I was one little drunk and another little girl.
It was only in the twelve-step program that I got to have both the spirit of the mystery. I’d hear stories, I’d meet you, and you would be in recovery, and then you’d tell me about what you were like before, and I think “That’s a completely changed different human being.” When you look at the steps and the people who say, “I don’t like it. I don’t want this or that.” It’s like, “That’s contempt prior to an investigation. You don’t have any of the facts. You don’t have any knowledge.”
Belief And Faith
There’s a difference between belief and faith. “What do you mean?” Belief is, “My car is broken.” You tell me, “Go take it to Tonda.” I don’t have any faith in her. The only way I am going to get faith in her is I have to take action. I may have faith in you and I believe you when you say she can fix my car, but until I pick up the phone call you, take steps, action, give my car to you, trusting and risking that you are not going to kill it, and then I get results, then I have faith.
The steps, I can sum up the steps in one sentence. First three steps. My higher power steps 4 through 7 enable me to love myself. It’s about my relationship with a higher power 8 through 12, which then allows me to love you. It has to be in that order. The 12th step is the result of these first 11 actions. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps. You are going for a spiritual awakening. It is a spiritual program, not a religious one. People understood that, and it was brilliant because Abby said to Bill, “Why don’t you choose your conception of God?”
Let’s say I go to your church or I say, “What do you believe in?” You say, “I’m Presbyterian and we believe in A, B, and C.” “I can’t do C.” “Bye.” “What are you?” “I’m Catholic. I believe in D, E, and F.” “No, I can’t do F.” I’m over here. I’m a Buddhist, I’m a Muslim, I’m whatever. I can fight with each one of you, but when you tell me to find my conception of God, who am I going to fight with? That and that’s what the twelve steps are. You find your conception.
That scared me to death because I thought, “What if this thing is a hoax?” More importantly, “What if this thing that everybody’s calling God speaks to you and you and you, but won’t speak to me,” then I can’t fight with it. Then I’m going to have to know that I’m outside the group. I’m known as The Big Book thumper, it talks about stepping on from the bridge of reason onto the shore of faith, and we couldn’t quite get to the shore, I couldn’t either.
–
Closing
Thank you for joining us on the show. We hope you’ll join us for Part 2 and Part 3 with Candy Finnigan and Jeanie Griffin. As always, if you have questions about J Flowers Health Institute, please look us up at www.JFlowersHealth.com. Thanks so much. Have a great day.
