Host Dr. Flowers, Co-Host Robin French and VIP Guest, Dr. Louise Stanger discuss Dr. Stanger’s new book “Addiction in the Family” as well as family intensive work.
Guest Social Media Handles:
Website: All About Interventions
Facebook: Louise Stanger
Facebook: Allaboutinterventions
Instagram: drlouisestanger
JFHI Social Media Handles:
Facebook: J. Flowers Health Institute
Instagram: jflowershealth
Twitter/X: J. Flowers Health Institute
LinkedIn: J. Flowers Health Institute
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Listen to the podcast here
Addiction In The Family – Helping Families Navigate Challenges, Emotions, And Recovery [Episode 30]
In this episode, we have Dr. Louise Stanger, my dear friend and colleague. We’re going to have a conversation.
It’s mostly about the book.
Also, addiction in the family and a few things. How are you?
First of all, I’m so excited to be here in Houston, visit J. Flowers Health Institute, and see how it’s burgeoning all the many clients that you’re helping thrive. I’m very excited to be here.
Masks Off
Thanks so much. We might as well say that you flew here after you’ve had both of your vaccines. Robin has had both of her vaccines. I’ve had both of my vaccines. The CDC says that we’re indoors and we’ve all been vaccinated. We don’t have to wear masks indoors with each other. We chose not to wear masks because we’re all vaccinated and feel good and healthy. I’m grateful for that. There’s something we can talk about. You live in California. We live in Texas. The governor of the great state of Texas says, “Mask off, everybody. No big deal.” What’s your thought on that, Dr. Louise?
It’s a little scary to me, to be honest. We have been so mass and shut down in California that to say no mask is a little scary. At the same time, the good state of California has been very, shall we say, idiosyncratic in terms of how they enforce it. You can go to Target and Walmart. All the small businesses have so suffered and all the gyms cannot be open. Also, all the schools and the little kids that have been zooming.
Your daughter’s gym, BoxUnion.
BoxUnion has been shut since March 11th, 2021. I wonder about the efficacy of not allowing people to box or do any type of exercise within social distancing. I don’t know that that was the wisest move.
In Texas, I go to the gym multiple times a week and wear my mask. It’s mandated. We have to wear our mask. Even though the governor is saying, “Mask off on Wednesday, reopen 100%, no need for masks,” or what have you, almost every business that I go to has a sign on the door and gyms that says, “We will continue to enforce masks while you’re in our business.” I’m great with the business being open. I’m so happy that people are reopening and we’re able to do things. I’m happy that they’re saying to continue wearing masks.
I totally agree. I wear masks everywhere. They’ve become a little bit of a fashion statement.
You have your Fendi mask and Gucci mask.
I forgot I have mine on. I got out of the car and gave the valet. I was searching for my mask and he said, “What are you looking for?” I said, “My mask.” He said, “It’s on your face.”
They’ve become like glasses on your face.
You become attached to them.
Human Condition
What do you think 2020, Dr. Louise, has done to the human condition around the world?
We all know anxiety and depression have escalated. Also, mental health. There has been an increase in substance abuse when we look at suicide. We know that youth suicide and teen suicide have been up. We also know that the suicide of older male adults has been up. We have lived inside a trauma bubble and I’ve written about it. We’re floating as if. We’ve learned how to love people as squares. We’re always through Zoom. We’ve learned how to maybe cook or bake more at home. Nonetheless, this has been the strangest place where we’ve lived in fear.
You and I didn’t get to see each other in person for almost a year. I saw you in January of 2019 and then didn’t see you the rest of 2020 because of it. I remember talking to you on the phone constantly but in March, April, May, and June 2020, you were experiencing your form of distress. You are someone who is 21 years old in heart and brain.
You like to travel. You love to exercise, go to the gym, and swim. You travel all over the world for work. You were in Palm Desert stuck and not being able to do anything. LA was shut down and you were paralyzed. It affects your human condition. We had many long conversations a little bit about depression. We both were on airplanes 3 or 4 days a week and all of a sudden, it was stopped.
It was like the world stopped and all of a sudden, we weren’t able to. I can remember so clearly I was speaking at Providence Medical Center in Everett, Washington. That was the last public speaking job I had. I was talking about chronic pain and trauma, how ironic. There were tiny rumblings there. They were talking about a plane coming. That didn’t bother me because I was arrogant and ego-fed. I was about ready to hop back on a plane to Palm Desert because I was excited.
COVID-19 stopped the entire world all of a sudden, and people cannot remember anything so clearly.
I was going to teach family mapping the next week at a treatment center somewhere in Utah that I had never got to teach that at but the world stopped. Everett, Washington with Providence Medical Center was where the first plane came in of people with COVID. I know more about COVID than the man on the moon. It was nothing about me or anything. Suddenly, the world stopped and then we didn’t believe. All of a sudden, we went, “I guess this is serious.”
We were talking to you while you were up there.
It was challenging.
Addiction In The Family
What’s so interesting is some people gained the COVID-20. Some people turn it into exercise. Some people were isolated and became depressed. We all handled covid very differently. I’ll ask you in a minute how you handled COVID. With the energy that Dr. Louise has, she puts it to good work. What Dr. Louise decided to do since she was “stuck” in the desert is write a number one Amazon bestselling book. It’s like, “What else do you do?” “Write a book.”
Addiction in the Family: Helping Families Navigate Challenges, Emotions, and Recovery by Dr. Louise Stanger. I’ve read it a few times. We give it to all of our families at the J. Flowers Health Institute. It’s an amazing book. I’ve given it to the treatment programs with whom I work. It’s been a great gift to therapists around the country as well. Kudos to you for putting your brain and energy to work during COVID when you were in the house.
I remember talking to your husband, John, when all this hit. We virtually don’t leave the house because they were saying, “Don’t leave the house,” especially when you, pardon me, live in the town of Palm Springs. It’s a retirement community and you’re an older adult. You were stuck. What did you do? You became a billionaire by writing a book.
No, not becoming a billionaire.
I wanted to read a little bit on the back to give the audience a little taste of what it’s about. “Get compassionate guidance that shows you how to navigate the unique challenges faced when a family member is suffering from a substance use disorder. Addiction in the family helps you better understand what your loved one is going through while also offering realistic advice for approaching their addiction and how it affects your entire family.”
“Drawing on Dr. Louise Stanger’s years of experience as a SUD and family trauma specialist, this book allows you to take things at your own pace and concentrate on the areas where you need the most support. Whether it’s finding ways to help your loved one, concentrating on your own self-care, or starting the healing and recovering journey, you’ll find practical and thoughtful guidance.”
Thank you. The wild thing about it was I was contacted by a media house to write a book. I said, “I can do that.” They had me send a writing sample and everything. No more thinking that I’d be writing about COVID than the man on the moon. I signed the contract and then COVID hit. It does not promote me or you, although I had to come to you so many times for guidance with writing but what I love about this book is it’s a guidebook that I wish I had had. When people call me up or J. Flowers, their hearts are hurting. They say, “What should I do? What should I say?” It is critical. “Where can I go?”
It’s a threat I’ve heard for many years from mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, and children looking for treatment and not knowing who to call, what to call, how to find a program, how to talk to their loved one, or how to deal with their loved one. This book guides you through that.
The other part that I’m excited about is it gives self-care activities. When we think about loved ones and our parents, who are calling us up, spouses, or someone whose heart is hurting, they’re not taking care of themselves. They’ve had sleepless nights. They haven’t slept, eaten, read, or journaled. At the end of every chapter, there is a self-care activity.
Page 49 is a self-care activity. Every morning when you wake up, write three things you’re grateful for. “I am grateful for blank.” It goes on and says, “I am grateful for,” three times. Before you go to bed, repeat the exercise. Write three new things that you’re grateful for three times. The process of writing six positive things that you’re grateful for does a lot for this brain.
This is evidence-based. Edmonds was a great positive researcher who said that we must remember to write three things every day that we’re grateful for. They change over time. It might be I’m grateful for the sunshine but later, I’m so grateful that I got this phone call and I got to be with you. They increase in sophistication, so to speak. If you can do that mindful practice, it changes your brain chemistry.
It’s amazing. Tell us about the process of writing the book. You did it during COVID. You called me a few times.
It’s not your first book.
It’s my third book. I learned something in this book that I never learned before and that is you keep writing. You don’t go back and write chapter 1 or 2. For those people who want to be writers, don’t. Keep on writing. Eventually, you’re going to have to go back and edit. The editors that I work with would not let me go back and write. Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 had significant rewrites because, by Chapter 3, I was putting in a lot more. I said, “No, I want to put a lot of case studies in and everything,” but I wrote the whole thing. I went back and that was so much easier.
Along the way, James and Gaetano Vaccaro, who is another therapist, were helpful. The good thing is it always takes a village. Yes, it was my pen and voice but along the way, I had to call, do a lot of research, and reach out to other experts to help me navigate that. Amazingly enough, it was done in June 2020.
They put it together and it came out in November 2020, I feel blessed because several times it has been number one, which means that it is resonating with people and that’s all it’s meant to do. If it can help somebody navigate their way or teach mission staff forum or clinical staff, what a gift.
Mental Health
I agree. It’s very timely. The other thing about reading this book is it certainly deals with recovery and addiction but it can also apply to mental health across the board.
I could have appealed to chronic pain or mental health. The editors wanted to say addiction in the family but I’m very clear that when we’re talking about mental health, some of the same tenants or the way she talks to someone is the same.
My next question is this. Have you sent a copy to Montecito and Buckingham Palace?
It’s funny that you mentioned that.
I do have a blog that came out. There is so much family hurt, pain, and angst in mental health. I was fairly presumptuous in offering both Montecito and the Palace clinical skills. For example, you and I have done family intensives all across the world. Once you air publicly your hurt, pain, and trauma, there has to be a way in which you, as an individual family unit or a collective family unit, have to heal. I’ve thought about how many families we have worked with all over the world. I wanted to offer them the same thing. To say those things without getting professional help is a misnomer.
Harry and Meghan
I agree. What we’re talking about clearly is the Oprah Winfrey show on Sunday evening with Harry and Meghan. Robin, did you see that?
I did.
What was your non-clinical hat or impression?
I was surprised at the comment that they made about the color of the baby’s skin. That one was a shocker.
Hurtful.
Did you see Oprah’s face when she heard that? I felt bad for him, especially Harry.
It was interesting watching his body language. His cheeks, as his segment progressed, started here and continued to go all the way up redder. Yeah, for the next five minutes. She and I were watching it together. It was amazing watching the flushing go through his face during his segment. I felt for him and her. It was so interesting seeing his white skin turn bright red in that segment.
It was a good show.
It was interesting seeing her lean over and shush him a few times.
I was concerned about that because he might have had a different perspective. We don’t know. The truth is always somewhere in the middle so it’s not always this way or that way. That’s why I wrote the blog I did because I see families in pain. When families call me, their hearts are hurting. This book was written based on the premise of mental health, substance use, and/or trauma and people’s hearts are hurting.
In my life, I’ve experienced that. James has experienced that. What do we do after we’ve been able to make this startling revelation? How do we heal? The healing is not going to take place in front of millions and millions of viewers. It doesn’t. That makes for big news headlines. There has to be this interior place where they can begin to heal. Offering them the professionalism of J. Flowers Institute, myself, or someone else who’s skilled in navigating with high wealth, celebrities, and those kinds of things is for all of them.
Healing will not take place in front of millions of people.
Family Mapping
I noticed you said something that maybe some of the audience don’t know what you were referring to but you referred to family mapping. Can you expand on that?
I’m infamous for family mapping but family mapping is merely a way into a story. With every family I work with, I invite them to tell me about their family. I do this pictorial drawing with lots of colors and everything that allows people to see where they came from generationally but also where they’re going. It makes you feel not alone. It takes about 90 minutes to do. Sometimes I’ll interview multiple people who will tell me something different about the family.
It’s always amazing looking at family maps and the maps that I’ve seen you do with families in which we work together. It creates this image of this family. We’re seeing the family see this map on the wall or board and they’re all going, “I didn’t realize this myself.” It’s the multigenerational trauma, deaths, divorces, anger, frustration, or adoptions.
Also, resiliency. It’s like, “Look at all the things that you have been able to accomplish.” We are strength-based so let’s capitalize on what are those strengths and how we can build those strengths. It’s so colorful. If I had one with me, it would take up that whole wall. They’re very powerful. I love teaching about them and doing them. I love having the ability to have someone help navigate their way.
It’s a beautiful process.
Writing The Book
Back to the book, was it someone else’s idea that they asked you to do it?
I was contacted. They said, “You’re a good writer. We want to have a book written about addiction in the family. Are you game?” I signed a contract, which is so funny. I don’t get residuals from it. I wish I did because it hit a huge number of sales but the idea was that I wanted to be of service. I had no idea whether one person would read it or not. It took on a life of its own. It’s so gratifying because I do get reachouts. I thought I was in heaven because I got this phone call from this lovely person. I get phone calls that I have to work with them but he said, “I read your book and I have to work with you.” He found me through the book. That was exciting.
The other part is it’s good for staff, teaching, and being able to work with anyone. It highlights so many different resources because there’s a huge resource provider book. I’m an interventionist but I don’t sell myself. I talk about the Network of Independent Interventionists and the Association of Intervention Professionals. The thing I like about it the most is families always say, “What should I say? How do I talk?” The ways in which I suggest are not always just my ideas. They’re well-horned ways of communicating. If that can help a family change the trajectory, what a gift.
Maximizing Family Resources
What do you think the single best piece of advice in the book is?
It’s the same thing I said. I give families no-fault insurance. Families did the best they could do with the resources they have and they can learn to do something differently. There’s a big argument in the literature or on the field. Codependency is a dirty word. Prodependency is good. People love. The question about love is, “Does my love do more good or harm?” That’s the way you look at it. If I bail you out of jail, is that a good thing or harmful? If I lie and call your work, is that good or bad? To what extent am I self-soothing myself?
We worked a lot with chronic pain patients. I remember a chronic pain family, which is a different way to intervene at all. They would be this angry little person telling them that they had chronic pain. They couldn’t get out of the room. They had to give them food and everything. Ultimately, that wasn’t helpful. It was harmful. Have families take a look at their behaviors and give them the courage. Someone had to give me the courage at one time. It’s the courage to be able to say, “I love you so much that this is what I’m willing to do and not willing to do.”
What I was laughing at is you must have been my mother’s therapist because when you were talking about, “Do I love you this or do I love you that,” I can remember calling my mother in college and saying, “Would you call into work for me, please? I can’t go to work today.” She would hang up on me. She has no comment or at other times, she’s like, “Get your butt to work,” and I do. She knew her lane.
Did she call to make sure you made it in?
No. She knew I made it in.
It’s hard.
Speaking of your mom, she was quite remarkable. She reminds me of Richard Branson’s mother. Richard Branson is amazing. I remember his mom allowed him to travel across the country on a bus when he was ten years old on his own. He had all these mentors.
If I’m by myself on a bus across the United States in the present, she’d go to jail.
That’s wild. She would, for sure.
He had a sense of adventure. Many were so afraid that we were going to do more harm than good but being able to let go or let someone experience their behaviors is a real gift.
We are so afraid of doing more harm than good. But being to let go or let someone experience what their behaviors are is a real gift.
Butterflies
Something personal about you that I’m looking at is you’re a collector of art. You love art and butterflies. Tell us about butterflies.
When I first started, I called my company. The joke is that I came up with all about the interventions because I thought I’d be first in the Yellow Pages with an AI. I love butterflies. My logo was a butterfly because I always thought that you could emerge from the crystal list. I’ve done a lot of work and I did research also, not only on alcohol and other drugs, for which I had about several million dollars of NIH and AAA grants but I did it on grief and loss, in particular widows and widowers who are widowed at a young age. I saw them as emerging from the crystal lists and everything.
With my first book falling up, even the book itself, the way the layout is, each chapter has a butterfly but I fell in love with a piece of art by David Krakow. I forget the exact name of it but it’s a big metal sculpture of a heart with butterflies. Krakow was influenced by a poem, I Never Saw Another Butterfly, which was written by a Hungarian man who was in a concentration camp. He never got to see another butterfly.
Krakow uses the butterflies as a juxtaposition for emerging but also tragedy. Much in the lives of people that we have, we’re helping them emerge from the chrysalis, be the person that they’re meant to be, and rewrite their story. Yet behind that story is fraught with whatever they’ve experienced. I serendipitously brought this with me. I thought, “I love the butterfly.”
You have your heart and butterflies.
Speaking of stories, when is your book coming out?
We’re not supposed to mention that but it’s in process.
I must say that I do love writing with Dr. Flowers and had the privilege of sharing a podium with him. One of the things that I will put on my little wish list is that we get to do that again. We get to be somewhere, not just on Zoom but in the public eye. J. Flowers Health Institute has much to contribute to the world of integrated wellness. It’s exciting to see it in action.
The work that we do is important in doing comprehensive diagnostic evaluations pre-placement. Placing someone in treatment prior to understanding that diagnosis is premature. You waste so much time in the best treatment programs in the world. With my treatment programs, historically, we put people in treatment not understanding who they are and what that diagnosis is. There’s no doubt in our minds that there is a juxtaposition between mental health and addiction. They are together. You can’t separate those two. You’ve got to look at both of those as well as the rest of a person’s life.
I 100% agree with that.
Houston
What’s the funnest thing you’ve done in Houston?
The funnest thing I’ve done in Houston is this show and getting to see the heights. It’s just being in Houston again because things are so open. The funnest thing I’ve done is travel. I’m so excited to travel. I know someone’s going to ask me what my favorite song is. We all know I love country music. I could die and go to Nashville. My favorite song, which is so apropos, is Blake Shelton’s I Can Be Happy Anywhere With You. My family will say, “We know you went to Houston. You love Dr. Flowers. It’s like having your brother.” Everybody knows that.
When your daughters call in Houston, I pick up the phone and say, “Hey.” They’re like, “I forgot mother’s with you. I’ll call again tomorrow.”
Are you going to any certain restaurants? Did you have any plans?
No. I had Chef Flowers.
Cook for her.
It’s not so much that you go to a restaurant. You have no idea what it’s like to suddenly feel like you’re free and safe. Maybe that’s what the vaccine does for you. It suddenly gives you this sense of safety but you still want to be mindful. There may be variants out there but the world can be open again. I have a blog post coming out. I write so much but it was taking a look at the year in review and trying to be optimistic about what this new world look like that we’re living in. Certainly, we’ve had a tough year.
Are you planning on going to the West Coast Symposium, Dee McGraw’s conference in La Quinta?
I’m trying to sort that out. I love that conference. The last time I was there, we spoke together. I have a recording but I would like to speak.
We both did a recording for Dee. We love all of her conferences. We’re both deciding but I certainly hope to be there.
I certainly hope to be there. I love the desert, which is great to visit. It’s to be able to give a hug and see people and say, “How are you?” Also, to be quiet.
That human connection again. I didn’t even know what Zoom was in January 2020.
Nobody did. No preschooler, mother, or parents knew. We’ve lived in Zoomtopia.
I’m so glad that we were able to do this here in person. Is there anything else that we need to cover and talk about?
I’m so grateful to be with you and be able to share. Those people who know me know that I love them. I work in a high acuity capacity. I love doing family intensives. I love speaking and writing. I’m so passionate about my work and see how J. Flowers Health Institute continues to bloom.
Thank you so much.
To use that analogy and know that there are so many people out there doing such good work helping others thrive.
Fun Facts
What’s one thing that all the people in the addiction and mental health world in the United States who know you don’t know about you?
That’s a hard one. They know I like SoulCycle. I’m back at Soul so that’s helping me.
I didn’t know you loved country Western music.
I love country Western music. Most people think I’m very extroverted but I’m a very private person. My real friends are very small. It still takes a lot of courage to speak, write, and work.
You do fantastic. Robin, what about you? What do all the people in the world not know about Robin French?
I don’t even know. They would be surprised to know that every now and then, I like to listen to heavy metal.
Do you turn it up?
I do crank it in the car. You can’t think. Sometimes when you want to turn your brain off, crank that thing up and listen to that nonsense. I don’t know. That’s the first thing that came to mind.
We’re going to skip me.
No. You cannot skip.
Episode Wrap-up
The only thing I could think of is probably most people don’t realize I’m a pilot. I love to fly airplanes. We’ll stop there. Go to Amazon and buy the book, Addiction in the Family by Louise Stanger. Thank you, Louise. I love you.
Thank you, Louise.
Thank you, J. Flowers and Robin.
Bye. We’ll see you next time.
